Monday, May 09, 2005

See, you just don't see Muslims in EUrabia organizing something like this.

Europeans - and Finns - are simply lost when it comes to understanding how to deal with their Muslim minorities.

17 Comments:

Anonymous mol9 said...

You're wrong, the situation is as bad in the US;
http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/news/bn2005/bn-2005-01-28.htm

Your American center of religious freedom sees it like this in this report;

- Various Saudi government publications gathered for this study, most of which are in Arabic, assert that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping them in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations

- The documents promote contempt for the United States because it is ruled by legislated civil law rather than by totalitarian Wahhabi-style Islamic law. They condemn democracy as un-Islamic;

- The documents stress that when Muslims are in the lands of the unbelievers, they must behave as if on a mission behind enemy lines. Either they are there to acquire new knowledge and make money to be later employed in the jihad against the infidels, or they are there to proselytize the infidels until at least some convert to Islam. Any other reason for lingering among the unbelievers in their lands is illegitimate, and unless a Muslim leaves as quickly as possible, he or she is not a true Muslim and so too must be condemned. For example, a document in the collection for the 'Immigrant Muslim' bears the words 'Greetings from the Cultural Attache in Washington, D.C.' of the Embassy of Saudi Arabia, and is published by the government of Saudi Arabia. In an authoritative religious voice, it gives detailed instructions on how to 'hate' the Christian and Jew: Never greet them first. Never congratulate the infidel on his holiday. Never imitate the infidel. Do not become a naturalized citizen of the United States. Do not wear a graduation gown because this imitates the infidel;

- One insidious aspect of the Saudi propaganda examined is its aim to replace traditional and moderate interpretations of Islam with extremist Wahhabism, the officially-established religion of Saudi Arabia. In these documents, other Muslims, especially those who advocate tolerance, are condemned as infidels. The opening fatwa in one Saudi embassy-distributed book, published by the Saudi Air Force, responds to a question about a Muslim preacher in a European mosque who taught that it is not right to condemn Jews and Christians as infidels. The Saudi state cleric's reply rebukes the Muslim cleric: 'He who casts doubts about their infidelity leaves no doubt about his.' Since, under Saudi law, 'apostates' from Islam can be sentenced to death, this is an implied death threat against the tolerant Muslim imam, as well as an incitement to vigilante violence;

- Sufi and Shiite Muslims are viciously condemned;

- For a Muslim who fails to uphold the Saudi Wahhabi sect's sexual mores (i.e. through homosexual activity or heterosexual activity outside of marriage), the edicts published by the Saudi government's Ministry of Islamic Affairs, and found in American mosques advise, 'it would be lawful for Muslims to spill his blood and to take his money'

- Regarding those who convert out of Islam, the Saudi Ministry of Islamic Affairs explicitly asserts, they 'should be killed'

- Saudi textbooks and other publications in the collection, propagate a Nazi-like hatred for Jews, treat the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact, and avow that the Muslim's duty is to eliminate the state of Israel

- Regarding women, the Saudi publications instruct that they should be veiled, segregated from men and barred from certain employment and roles

Have a nice day, mol9

3:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yep, Puntti, U.S. has been warned. Invade the world / invite the world -policy doesn't work so well than you think. Maybe that's some sort of divided karma: you get on their face in their countries - they'll get in your face in your country. Gradually. Eventually.

See, you just don't see Muslims in EUrabia organizing something like this.

Some of them also seem to be willing to organize something like this in the states.

Europeans - and Finns - are simply lost when it comes to understanding how to deal with their Muslim minorities.

Stay clear of them and stay clean of them - perhaps that should work better?

11:27 AM  
Blogger Finnpundit said...

mol9, you've completely missed the point, and your link only underscores that. Of course foreign powers are trying to influence American domestic politics, but the planned demonstrations in Washington point to how much they have failed in their attempts to influence American Muslims.

These demonstrations also show how far American Muslims have evolved, compared to European Muslims. And the reason is obvious: the liberation of Iraq, - and the subsequent Muslim terrorist attacks there against fellow Muslims - have clarified their thinking.

Where are the Muslim anti-terror demonstrations in Europe? Most EUrabians still regard terrorism as a "legitimate" form of resistance. AND, that is because the welfare states of Europe take a limp approach when it comes to confronting terrorism.

Anonymous: your dire predictions are just that, predictions. The planned demonstration is one indication that your predictions are not based on realistic assessments, but wishful thinking.

And why wishful? Because you are an anti-American bigot, after all.

5:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And your'e anti-Finnish smallot, right? Didn't we agree on this already?

Did you note that I referred, again, American sources? That is, the same assumptions have already been made there, too. It isn't excatly rocket science.

5:21 PM  
Blogger Finnpundit said...

Anonymous, you seem to enjoy linking to sites run by American extremists. So what? Like I've said, I could direct you to a number of sites run by Finnish Nazi Party members. But the relevance of such sites is little, because they are just that, extremists.

Your arguments, though, that "dire things will happen to the US, just you wait and see..." well, that refrain has been heard before. Marx, Lenin, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, etc.: all of them made similar predictions, with even better argumentation that you've provided. But the US is still here, while Europe had to endure the statist ideologies it itself has spawned.

The key to remember is that a consumer culture eventually wins, simply because people like that better than ideology. Most American Muslims are happy consumers, and recent arrivals... they'll be converted soon enough, as the lack of state welfare support never gives them the notion that they're entitled to something - the main problem Europe has with its Muslim arrivals.

But, getting back to the original post, the fact that Muslims in America are organizing a demonstration against terrorism is a fairly unique occurrence. I haven't seen anything like that happening in Europe. And that's not surprising.

10:38 PM  
Anonymous mol9 said...

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?noframes;read=63746

No, YOU miss the point, you have no idea what it's happening in the moslim community;

On Sunday, (01.16.05) the butchered bodies of the Armanious family were found in their home--bound, gagged and stabbed to death. Included were the father, Hossam, his wife Amal Garas and their daughters; fifteen year old Sylvia and eight year old Monica. Of particular significance is the way in which they were murdered. As well as multiple stab wounds in all of the bodies, each had his and her throats slit; in accordance with ritualistic Quranic law. Sylvia appears to have suffered the worst, at the hands of the family’s murderers. An additional stab wound was inflicted on her wrist, the wrist upon which a tattoo of the Coptic Christian cross appeared, and Sylvia sustained a long gash to her chest. Fred Ayed, a deacon from the family’s church, dispelled rumors that the family’s deaths were attributed to a robbery. Ayed said: "This is not a robbery. "We found all of the jewelry in the house. They didn't take anything."

What was the reason for the slaughter of the Armanious family? Almost immediately, one came to light. Hossam Armanious was outspoken about both his strong Christian faith and his disagreements with the tenets of Islam. He engaged in “heated debates” with Muslims on the web blog paltalk.com. During one of those chatroom sessions, Armanious was sent a response message that read: "You'd better stop this bull**** or we are going to track you down like a chicken and kill you!" It now appears that Armanious’ nemesis followed through on the threat. Armanious and his entire family are now dead.

Unfortunately and unconscionably, as of this writing only one news channel (Fox) is reporting this story in any depth. In fact, neither the alphabet soup networks nor the other cable channels have even bothered to include it in their online news sites. Although the deaths of Muslims around the world are reported as front page news by the mainstream media, apparently the death of Christians (ostensibly at the hands of Muslims) isn’t worth mentioning. And, of note, none of our ‘moderate’ Muslim friends have said anything. In this case, both groups’ silence says a mouthful.

And all of this happens in your peacefull US!

3:41 AM  
Blogger Finnpundit said...

mol9: You're a bit late with that news, which was splashed all over American MSM, by the way.

The latest police investigation has revealed that there was a robbery motive, after all, ostensibly from a next door neighbor. After that, the Coptic community quieted down, embarrassed as they were by their quick assumption fanatic Muslims were responsible.

The reason news sources have calmed down about this is that this case isn't as explosive as everyone thought it would be.

Try a little harder next time in coming up with relevant news about America.

10:07 AM  
Anonymous mol9 said...

ok, I take that one back. But you mustn't underestimate the statements of Arab priesthood, it has a profound effect on moslims in Amsterdam, why not in the US, I don't attack the US, I think though, you don't see the danger of these developments. In Amsterdam we had demonstrations too, but it doesn't neutralize the "fundamentalisation(?)" of the moslim youth. Aren't you worried when you read these Saudi government statements? Maybe it is that I lived whole my life between moslims, so I see something terrible happening, this isn't only an intellectual discussion for me, I see a western society in danger, the US is clearly their most hated enemy, so I want you to wake up!

2:12 AM  
Blogger Finnpundit said...

That is where you've made a mistaken assumption. The Muslims in the US are not like the Muslims in Europe, precisely because the US socio-economic climate is so very different from the European welfare-state model.

European states make a welfare-state’s promise to all its citizens and new-comers. Muslims in Europe see that there is still discrimination against them when it comes to administering that promise. Therefore, they get radicalized.

America makes no welfare-statist “promises” to its immigrants, simply because the welfare benefits here are so miserly that they can be hardly construed as a promise or a guarantee for any kind of a good life. The only promise America makes is that famous one: you are free to pursue your dreams. In practical terms, it eventually boils down to this: you as an individual can selfishly pursue your own fortune, with minimum government taxation and interference. That is such a radical concept in itself for many from developing countries that sooner or later the new-comers will forget their pre-conceived notions and adapt their thinking to the American way.

As I see it, American Muslims are the hope of the Muslim world, and to any and all who feel threatened by Islamofascist militancy. Yet it would be worthwhile for Europeans to understand that their own welfare states are one of the root causes for the emergence of Muslim militancy, not only in Europe, but also in the entire Arab world, which adopted a lot of European notions of national identity, welfare-statist obligations, and resistance to foreign tyranny from... European historical models.

There’s nothing like a welfare state’s promise - that is actually meant for a strictly nationalist state - to raise the dander of an immigrant. The newcomers of Europe are testing the validity of the promises Europeans really just made to their own nationals. Europe still doesn’t understand it has no choice but to start adapting to globalization. And for Europe to survive as a culture that will continue to be relevant in the world... means that the unsustainable promises of a welfare state need to be dismantled.

Keep in mind that European welfare states were not a historically developed inevitability. They were simply built up, with US encouragement, to counter the appeal of Soviet-style communism during the Cold War.

Their usefulness has ceased to exist.

P.S. I appreciate your comments. I did not mean to deride your lack of access to the latest developments on the Coptic murder case. That was simply due to the fact that the latest developments were not as… shall we say, sensational… as MSM would like them to be. Fox is still on the story, for it could still prove to be one that would support their editorial angle.

3:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh dear:

"A march in the US capital organized by the Free Muslims Against Terrorism group, whose members seek to promote democracy while rejecting the use of radical Islam, drew only a few dozen supporters.

"Our numbers might not be big today but our hearts are, and we are not going to give up," said Kamal Nawash, president of the group, who promised bigger crowds at next year's demonstration."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050514/ts_alt_afp/usislammuslimsdemo_050514231702&printer=1

4:29 AM  
Blogger Finnpundit said...

Ah, well, it turned out to be too optimistic.

These organizers need to understand they have a lot of competition when it comes to getting people's attention in a market society. Yet it would be interesting to find something like this happening in Europe. The closest I've found is in Holland (in connection with the Theo van Gogh murder), though there is still no complete condemnation of terror as a tactic.

1:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know about marches or such - but in the aftermath of 9/11 many prominent Muslims spoke out saying they wanted nothing to do with the jihadi ideology - I remember many cases in the UK. I also remember crowds in Tehran holding a vigil outside of the US embassy in solidarity.

But as the GWOT is being seen by Muslims increasingly as a war on Muslims - with the jihadis doing everything they can to fan that feeling - people are confused by what terror is. Hence no blanket condemnation of terror as a tactic.

1:50 PM  
Blogger Markku said...

"Yet it would be worthwhile for Europeans to understand that their own welfare states are one of the root causes for the emergence of Muslim militancy, not only in Europe, but also in the entire Arab world, which adopted a lot of European notions of national identity, welfare-statist obligations, and resistance to foreign tyranny from... European historical models."

Hello, Earth calling, by the above you seem to be referring to Arab socialism ideology such as Baathism. Guess what, Baathists where enemies radical islamism. Baathists represented modernity as opposed to islamic theocracy just like Mustafa Kemal's Turkish nationalism.

Do you really think Iraq was liberated from islamic tyranny? Iraq was liberated from the a secular dictator most hated by radical islamists. As a result, radical islamism is on the march in Iraq.

7:17 AM  
Blogger Finnpundit said...

Actually, I was referring to Nasserism, which was very much modeled on the socialist welfare states of Europe.

Islamists were oppressed under Nasserism, too, but they were influenced by the idea that a state welfare apparatus was a necessary component of society: an idea picked up by Nasserists from Europe.

Islamism is a rather recent development (religious Muslims in the past never saw a need for a political Islam). As such, it had to compete with the other trends in the Arab world, such as Nasserism and Baathism. To do that, they borrowed the ideas and (socialist, welfare-state) rhetoric of both, but infused them with fundamentalist tenets. And it became useful for fundamentalists to adopt a form of state which controlled society as much as a welfare state.

Where did Ayatollah Khomeini's supporters learn most of their statecraft? By observing France, while in exile there.

Contrast this to Arab Muslim countries in the past centuries, which were on the whole mercantilist. There was never a better trader than an Arab. But all of that disappeared when Arab nations became independent, and started modeling their states on European models.

Keep in mind that welfare states are decidedly nationalistic. Thus extreme nationalist dissent, such as the IRA and ETA, and even the French Resistance, gets expressed in extreme ways. That lesson was not lost on the Arab world.

10:31 AM  
Blogger Markku said...

"Islamism is a rather recent development (religious Muslims in the past never saw a need for a political Islam)."

The statement that religious Muslims in the past never saw a need for a political Islam is pure unmitigated bullshit.

I'd be very interested to hear your explanation how the European welfare state caused the Islamic revolution in Iran in the late 1970's.

5:38 PM  
Blogger Finnpundit said...

Why don't you go and hit the history books, before dismissing anything without any historical proof.

And I never claimed that the Iranian revolution was caused by European welfare states. Try not to twist words around for the sake of facile counter-arguments.

12:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Finnpundit writes:
So what? Like I've said, I could direct you to a number of sites run by Finnish Nazi Party members.

I tried hard to find finnish nazi party but didn't find it. Is there official Nazi Party in Finland and what's 'Nazi Party' in finnish?

9:38 AM  

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